'Strategic alignment across national goals should come from commitment to SDGs' an interview with Samia Khan, Senior Group Head PPAF

Samia Liaquat Ali Khan has worked in international human rights and development sector for over 20 years, with a focus on programme design, implementation, monitoring and evaluation. Currently she is serving as Senior Group Head of Graduation Group, Pakistan Poverty Alleviation Fund (PPAF), having previously overseen the organisation's compliance and quality assurance group.

In this interview, BR Research picks up on a few broad themes: poverty in media; public perception of the poor; economic geography of poverty; role of provinces; and of course, the prospects and challenges of graduation from poverty.

BR Research: There is no single definition of poverty. What is the public perception of the poor? Has the PPAF or anyone else ever researched on it in Pakistan? And how important is it to understand public perception of 'who is poor' in order to create a buy-in for the size and nature of government spending on poverty?

Samia Khan: The reason there is no single definition of poverty is simply because both academics and lay person view poverty from different lenses and have different perceptions. For example, a World Bank economist may look at income as the only determinant of poverty, whereas a social scientist may view a person's access (or lack thereof) to health and education a poverty determinant.

When we at PPAF engage with rural communities, through community institutions (CIs), we ask CI members what in their view is poverty. Here we find that the poorest households are considered those where there is no male member generating any sort of income; those who eat one meal per day; do not own land or any other type of assets (livestock, durable consumer goods, etc).

The PPAF then matches this data to government data (BISP Poverty Scorecard), where it is available. When communities are themselves involved in identifying the poorest among their midst, they support, and they have ownership over the programmes that assist these poorest households.

Rich and middle-class families may not differentiate poverty in the same way as poor rural communities. Charitable giving in Pakistan is widespread and studies reveal that it is often a spur of the moment decision. People within the immediate vicinity, who are seen to be poor (may range from domestic staff to beggars), are recipients.

BRR: What is your assessment of media coverage of poverty?

SK: Mainstream media is interested in stories - and sometimes sensationalizing poverty and its effects makes for good reading. For example, when we look at Tharparkar and the issue of infant deaths, the coverage adds more to the hype of 'famine' as compared to an analysis of the issues and trends, both structural as well as geo-political, that have come together to create the situation we read about.

The underlying causes of poverty are complex and interlinked, which means simple solutions may not often work. However, explaining these complexities as well as the solutions that may derive therefrom is not easy in the media.

BRR: How exactly are the responsibilities of poverty reduction or graduation of poverty divided between federal and provincial governments after the devolution?

SK: Poverty reduction is both a federal and a provincial subject, simply because the underlying causes of poverty cut across various sectors. The Ehsaas Strategy is a broad-based federal strategy but when you look at the details, it involves implementation by both federal and provincial arms of government, non-governmental organizations, donors, and private sector - across areas such as social protection, nutrition, health, education, youth development, etc.

It also requires systematized integration between social protection initiatives that are being launched nationally as well as provincially. For example, Punjab has a Social Protection Authority which has a myriad of schemes to assist the poor. However, these need to dovetail with the national social protection programme - BISP - so that we know what benefits are accruing and to whom.

Inclusive planning and decision-making which involves both provincial and federal stakeholders, is needed, where targets (using the SDGs as a benchmark) are mutually agreed and a plan of action developed specifying roles and responsibilities, and budgets, for each.

BRR: Which economic sectors does Pakistan's poor mostly belong to and what skillsets or economic clusters are they employed in?

SK: Pakistan's rural poor belong mainly to the agriculture sector. They are tenants or 'haris' and the land they live on, and work on, is not their own. They are largely illiterate or semi-literate, whereas men and women's roles are divided into a variety of on-farm and off-farm activities. These include crop cultivation (sowing and reaping carried out by both women and men), livestock care and management (women and children), and sometimes other income-generating activities such as sewing or stitching (women). There is regular migration of boys and men to urban areas as not enough money is earned to support the household.

The urban poor are also largely unskilled and semi-literate and find employment in different trades and sectors - usually as day wage labourers in construction, or in transport, and other industries. The urban poor are faced with a different set of challenges to the rural poor, as often there is no social support in the 'katchi abadis' where they live - and street children often get caught up in a life of crime or prostitution.

BRR: Does the PPAF mostly focus on the rural poor or is it so that urban poor is also on its agenda?

SK: As a rural development agency, PPAF focuses mainly on the rural poor - this is our target clientele. However, within the organization there is much debate and discussion on the role we should be playing to help the urban poor through similar programmes. There is some consensus that we begin to extend our role in urban areas through pilots and partnerships with other stakeholders.

BRR: How could graduation from poverty be better aligned with other national goals such as financial inclusion, skilled labour etc?

SK: I believe strategic alignment across national goals needs to come from Pakistan's commitment to the SDGs. These 17 goals (often crosscutting) are the umbrella under which all our programmes and actions should be mapped and triangulated. For example, Goals 1 and 2 and 10, 'No Poverty', 'Zero Hunger' and 'Reduced Inequalities' align very closely with PPAF's graduation approach.

The poverty graduation approach looks at financial inclusion and skilled labour as critical components of the overall set of activities and methodologies that are required to move households out of poverty. As part of our programme, we assess households' current skills and resource base, and use this to help them identify the type of asset, skill and resources required to generate employment or create/upgrade their home-based enterprise.

We work in geographical locations where we know food insecurity is high and we provide a range of services or products to communities, that include not only livelihood support, but also community infrastructure, health and education support, and access to finance to create an eco-system that supports their achieving SDGs.

We have a programme where, through our own funds, we support those community institutions that are able to show their success in achieving specific SDGs vital for their progress - for example, where they are ensuring that all local children (girls and boys) are being enrolled in school; where polio and other vaccination campaigns are covering all households, etc. Being part of the government's Ehsaas programme has been important in that data sharing across institutions and mapping of households is now a priority - and this is essential if we are to track households' movement up and out of poverty over the longer term.

BRR: How important is the need to have an effective local government that has both fiscal and political autonomy in order to achieve success in poverty graduation

SK: After Constitutional Amendment 18, provincial autonomy must now functionally be devolved to local government. This is where I believe provinces are failing their responsibility to citizens. Local government autonomy is critical, as is financing, but within a structure and mechanisms which ensure good governance, downward accountability, ease of access to information (for the public), and regular audits of public funds.

The existence of community institutions supports this structure of local governance, because in order for downward accountability and good governance to become functional we need an educated, active and aware population - and this is what PPAF is trying to achieve.

BRR: If multi-dimensional poverty is the key lens with which poverty is seen then isn't unconditional cash transfer a better option (i.e. letting people have their own choice) rather than administrating asset transfers. Shouldn't the poor have a choice; or you think poverty forces poor to make bad choices? There is enough literature on both sides; where does your or PPAF's intellectual bias lie?

SK: There are pros and cons with both options. People still have a choice when provided an asset, as the asset is only procured when the household has decided what it wants - based on some business planning that we support them to do. Providing cash is a cheaper option - as then the process of community engagement, procurement of asset, and business training can be bypassed.

But personally, my bias lies on the side of asset transfers as opposed to unconditional cash transfers. Why? Because I view this process from an 'empowerment' agenda. Part of our community engagement process is to address some of the areas of disempowerment and disenfranchisement that exist within our population (the multiple dimensions of poverty include dimensions of power).

I believe that giving an asset to a woman, training her on its use, and supporting her through ensuring she is a member of a community institution and thus has a 'voice', has a whole lot more to offer than just transferring an equivalent amount of money into her bank account. The process of empowerment is not easy - it has ups and downs, can often be disheartening, and requires a long-term commitment. A quick fix is not the answer.

BRR: With regard to the mainly livestock-based asset transfer programme currently being tested, it's one thing to test it and another to find decent lot of livestock animals that have good milk yields.

SK: I agree. There are some big challenges with regard to dairy/meat industries - quality, degradation of indigenous breeds, and environmental impacts that can ensue. And this is why in our IFAD funded National Poverty Graduation Programme, we are focusing beyond livestock.

We understand that in some areas, demand for assets other than livestock is limited. However, local populations lack access to information about what kinds of products and services, value-chains and markets they could potentially engage with in order to earn better.

Our strategy is to undertake market assessments of the tehsils and districts within which we work, to identify such opportunities - and then take this information to our local communities to help enhance their understanding.

One of the issues Dr. Imran Rasul, Research Economist at the International Growth Centre, and a leading global poverty researcher, is looking at for PPAF is this asymmetry of information, and how it impacts on the economic decisions being made by households when choosing an asset or business to undertake. We also have to move beyond simple livestock-based asset solutions to those that can help us align with the technological and environmental changes that are happening globally. Our rural communities should not be left behind.